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Swift - Pilot client progress

Robert Bressert

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Stop demanding they give you an update. They do not owe you one. If you want to participate in the journey, learn to code and join the team.


Writing and testing code moves the project forward, spending time telling you about coding and testing does not.


I would agree that my comment was a suggestion rather than a demand, however I can see that our feedback is not wanted.

Joel Richters



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Just to add my perspective and opinion to the mix ... I rather like the way it worked out during vERAM development. I had a progress thread similar to this one. I did not make regular posts to the thread on any sort of schedule. Instead, I would just reply when someone posted asking for an update. I would also post once in a while if there was something especially noteworthy, such as when development went into "feature freeze" or when the beta testing stabilized.


For the most part, this thread has proceeded in a similar fashion ... occasionally users will post asking for an update, and Mathew or another developer would respond. Where I think this thread has become less helpful is when people have jumped to conclusions saying "I guess swift is dead" because a long time has gone by without an update. (And that sort of tone is what comes across as a "demand" for an update.) Obviously there are far more users interested in swift than there were in vERAM, so the likelihood of a doomsayer popping up is much higher here, and perhaps it's inevitable.


So I guess I would just encourage users to feel free to post a question here to ask if there are any updates, without [Mod - Happy Thoughts]uming that no news is bad news. And I would encourage the devs to take a minute to respond, even if it's just to say "yes, we're still making progress." I personally don't subscribe to the notion that posting a quick reply in the forums is taking away valuable development time. You can post a quick update in literally seconds.

Developer: vPilot, VRC, vSTARS, vERAM, VAT-Spy

Senior Controller, Boston Virtual ARTCC

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The suggestion is noted, with gratitude for your taking an interest, and our position is explained, maybe not to everyone's satisfaction, but it is explained. We appreciate constructive feedback, and we're sorry if we're not able to grant your wish, but there it is.


Thank you for recognizing the fact that it was a suggestion and I was simply trying to help cut down on any negative comments. I am more focused on the ATC side of VATSIM, therefore, I have not been playing much attention to Swift and pilot clients anyway (no offense, I'm simply trying to emphasize the fact that I am not demanding an update - was just chiming in with my two cents).


Instead, I would just reply when someone posted asking for an update. I would also post once in a while if there was something especially noteworthy, such as when development went into "feature freeze" or when the beta testing stabilized.




I personally don't subscribe to the notion that posting a quick reply in the forums is taking away valuable development time. You can post a quick update in literally seconds.


I'm glad you responded Ross, because this entire time I was thinking about your level of communication to the community throughout the development of all of your programs and how well it all worked. The main reason I chimed in is because I too believe that a quick update, even something as simple as "Work is still in progress", spreads the word regarding the program and keeps the members excited for release.


Thanks everyone,

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The post saying it "seems dead , shame" and "vaporware" are p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ive aggressive demands. They say that to illicit a response. While updates would be nice they usually lead to people complaining when no real progress can be reported. See it all the time in the aerosoft forums. Developers are dammed if they do and dammed if they don't. At least with aerosoft they are being paid. These guys are doing it for free.


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Feedback is when a person asks for your opinion. Offering your opinion without being asked isn't feedback.


Everyone wants updates. I want updates. However it is not a requirement of developers that they do so on any sort of regular or irregular basis. If they choose to do so and they handle it well, like Ross, then things tend to go well. Ross also asks for the help.


For the record I noted the attempts to push this back in a positive direction after the negative comments, thanks for that, and my comments were aimed at the negative posts, not yours Cam or Joel. Asking nicely is always OK; being disrespectful in your ask is not.

Kyle Ramsey



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Feedback is when a person asks for your opinion. Offering your opinion without being asked isn't feedback.


I dare to stand against that thought. In my opinion the following defines feedback very well.


"Feedback: a process of sharing observations, concerns and suggestions between persons or divisions of the organization with an intention of improving both personal and organizational performance."


Not taking part on the fact wether the previous comments were feedback or not, I just wanted to get this thought out because in my opinion it doesn't require anyone to ask for opinions before they turn feedback. Otherwise what would non-asked feedback be? Harrasement? Just some random incorrect opinions? Trolling?


Feedback is feedback as long as it has a goal to improve something. Therefore when an opinion about something is made in a constructive way to get something better, it can be taken as feedback. Usually developers asks for feedback but it's not required for someone to send feedback. And if feedback is not noted in any way (asked or un-asked), something is not working right in the organisation.


I want to ephasize that this is in no way directed to Swift developers or their way handling the previous comments and choosing their line of communication outside the scenes. Just to tell what at least I take as the definition of feedback.


And maybe we should get back to topic. Sorry for taking this so much off from the original topic, which is the Swift itself.

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Could we please stop discussing little sissy-details like these? It is a disgrace for this topic.


Swift will be ready when it will be ready. That is the truth that we have to live with. Maybe buying a crate of beer for the developers will speed up the process. Asking the same questions over and over again will most likely not.

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One last point to make on this. In the unlikely event that swift were to die before launch, we would at least make sure that the source code is available for anyone else to pick up the pieces. But since we are still very much working on it, this is solely an academic point. It just takes a long time.

swift - Developer
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I think one of the most important reasons for why people are asking for more updates, or saying the project is ended has something to do with how you started out with informing.


You started really big, made a facebook page, in august 2013, where there was somewhat regular updates and pictures up until august 2014. almost one year.


That's when you announced the new website swift-project.org. After this was up, the facebook page just died. No more updates.

Then there was some updates to and from up until end of october 2015, and then just silent.


So all in all, we all got information, and then it went into an information vaccome.


So I would dare say, that is a key into why some people will be somewhat negative at times


my two cents

Happy programming

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At work, I have to do various status updates and reports depending on the severity and status of the project. For overall project status reports on routine projects that are just humming along, they are monthly and include top 2-5 bullets on:

- Accomplishments/Recognition

- Issues/Needs for Help

- Outlook (next 30 days)


I would think that if someone would take on the task of publishing such a post, setting a calendar alarm to remind them, taking no more than 10 minutes to do it each month so it wasn't a true burden, it would go a long way in keeping folks informed and keeping the energy positive and hopeful, not despairing and negative.


I'd appreciate it if the swift team would consider doing such a thing. Communication is key!

Don Desfosse
Vice President, Membership

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Hi Don,

I agree. I offered around 18 months ago to write/maintain their user docomeentation whilst they wrote the software, but without uptake.

Now I would be more than happy to write such a progress docomeent regularly, if only there was a positive reaction from the developers.

I am looking to improve the communications without adding to their workloads.

Cheers, Richard

You are the music, until the music stops. T.S.Eliot
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This progress thing should remind us all of the great work Ross Carlson did with Vpilot.


Announced he was going to do it, briefed regularly, took questions and answered them without any dramas, produced a great product in a very short time all by himself.


I remember an occasion a few years ago on Vatsim uk forum where a member was upset at being ignored for ATC training without any communication from "staff" for a long period, I think 10 angry staff managed to all post within 1hr on the forum at 2200 local that they were too busy during the previous weeks to inform him of news and that he should be patient.


This communication thing can and does get a little silly sometimes.


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just a few comments on what I read in the previous posts:

Yes, there wasn't a lot information lately on the progress. As I explained in a previous post, most of the details are on such a low technical level, that most people cannot get anything from it. Of course we are still organized via high level steps, for example

  • Finalizing model mapping database and local model matching

  • Airport Database

  • Interpolation Improvements

  • Infrastructure Setup (Continuous Integration, Review Tools)


but without having visibility to the child tasks going on, the same list of tasks would be provided in all upcoming updates.


I'm aware that there was a big bang at the beginning of the project, with a lot promotion and stuff. However after very short time, we also learned that advertising without real content has no sense. We were not able to answer questions about client features, since nothing was clear at this point in time. We were also approached by industry about future collaboration and a interface docomeentation. It was simply impossible to create and commit to a interface at a time when only a first design idea was finished on paper.

This comment also goes to the big number of volunteers providing support in the area of user docomeentation, beta testing, promotion etc. Your offerings are really appreciated and your help will definitely be welcome when we reach this specific phase. We are just not there yet.


All developers are fully aware that 3 years have p[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ed and we are the ones, being shocked most by this fact. But please keep in mind that swift has a completely different design compared to other clients. For example vpilot: I understand that Ross did create a product for a commercial customer, which was very similar to a pilot client and he did finish the 10 %, to convert it into a Vatsim usable software. He also got a lot experience from his other excellent products. Our set of requirements are much much bigger and causes a lot more work. Even if everyone of us is a experienced developer, nobody of us was ever developing something like this. We had to start from scratch. How long was the development of FSinn?


So please stay patient. The development has not stalled at all. We are the first one, keen to start using our own software and of course we are looking forward to see how other people are going to like it. We are just not there yet, but we are not far away from it either.

swift - Technical Manager


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HI there ,


Can we not just get regular updates on the status of the program ..


There is lots of comments on the German Vatsim page , but even with Google translate I find it difficult to follow ,


This has been years in development , It can take as long as it must but at least give feedback




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