Any FIR using mode S/Squawk 1000 correlation at Europe?

[Pavel Brodsky]

Hello,

I have a question on other European FIRs. Does anybody of you use squawk 1000 to correlate aircraft equipped with mode S? Here at Czech Republic (LKAA) real situation is following:

 

• * our radars are fully equipped with mode S
  * when there is a departure from LKPR that flies TO other countries equipped with mode S (Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Netherlands...), our FDP system [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igns them squawk 1000 and the correlation is done using mode S
  * when the departure files to non-modeS equipped units (via Poland, Slovakia) or (to England, Italy...) , FDP [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igns them standard A code to correlate
  * Arrivals departing from modeS countries come with squawk 1000 to us and they keep this code until the end of their flight
  * Arrivals from other countries (England...) or flying via Poland/Slovakia come with individual mode A code which is sometimes kept until landing, and sometimes our ACC [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igns them new code

 

It would be cool to introduce this also on VATSIM (especially for peak hour when we often reach limit of mode A codes quickly and we have lot of DUPE warnings on ACC), but I would like to know if EDMM/EDWW/LOVV ACCs are ready for that so when they get aircraft with sqk 1000 from us, they will know what it is and will not cause them extra workload by re-[Mod - Happy Thoughts]igning him a discreet mode A code.

 

Using Euroscope for this thing would be easy - we can use either the mode S correlation from professional radar simulation, or just the easy vatsim thing with squawk 1000 being included in the general settings field so that we dont get DUPE warnings for multiple aircraft with 1000.

 

Best regards,

Pavel Brodsky

VACC-CZ

[Jonas Kuster]

As you already mentioned, radars in Switzerland are also mode S equipped. Therefore, the [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ignment of squawk codes works the same way you described. But we are currently not simulating mode S in the VATSIM environment.

On the one hand, there are still some issues with the professional radar mode (already reported in this forum). On the other hand, there is no (as far as I know) indicator for mode S capability of aircraft. But I think this is just a question of implementing a tag item or something looking for the relevant FAA suffixes. Possible is also a change of the auto [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ignment of codes and an option activating the [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ignment of squawk 1000 to all aircraft with a suffix indicating mode S capability. [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ignment of squawks according enroute FIRs and destination is too complicated, I think.

Our sectorfile distribution already includes squawk 1000 in the exclusion list for DUPE warnings.

[Pierre Ferran]

Hi Pavel,

 

I'm also very pro-mode S. I'm using a bit here in France, whenever I have a mode S flight bound for France, Switzerland, Belgium, the Netherlands or Germany, I [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ign them squawk 1000.

 

I don't use the default mode S string however, I use a custom one, using codes that are sent by EF[Mod - Happy Thoughts] and PFPX automatically, and some standard FAA codes. Here is the string I use: HLEGWQS.

 

The best thing really, would be to start switching to the ICAO flight plan, we have vPilot in active development that could implement it I guess, as long as we keep background compatibility and that EuroScope gets updated, it could work.

 

Concerning the mode S airspace, why not make some use of VATEUD staff and start the "VATEUD mode S initiative"?

 

I've also coded a small plugin that adds a list item which shows "S" when an aircraft is mode S equipped.

[Nicolas Ammann]

Concerning the mode S airspace, why not make some use of VATEUD staff and start the "VATEUD mode S initiative"?

 

I am always happy to support.

 

Regarding the mode S transponder and squawk 1000, I think this can be quite easily done using a LOA between the affected vACC. Everything else needs a longer time frame and more discussion.

 

Please give me some time to check with my team.

[Pavel Brodsky]

Glad to see more people interested in that. VATEUD would be excelent idea, the problem is that 1000 is not just ad-hoc between two units - or at least from my understanding of Czech FDP system, the 1000 is given only if the aircraft will not leave mode S airspace on the entire route - so that the whole route has to be covered by this. I think that the best thing would be to find information about which FIRs in real Europe use the mode S, then ask individual VACCs on VATSIM about if they are able to implement it into their radar systems (or help them, it is really easy), and then make VATEUD map (small web picture) with airspace which we are allowed to give clearances with this code into.

 

If somebody from VATEUD needs any help, I am happy to [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ist.

 

Pavel

[Pierre Ferran]

I think that the best thing would be to find information about which FIRs in real Europe use the mode S

 

From what I know, France is fully covered mode S for all airports/FIRs (that's sure), Switzerland is, Brussels is, Amsterdam is, Lagen should be, and they've recently started using it in some part of Italy, mainly Milano and Roma approaches, you see CDG-MLP and FCO-MLP mode S flights.

 

There was a docomeent by Eurocontrol somewhere on the net with details of the implementation, i'll try to find it.

 

If you guys are interested, I could publish my "mode S" plugin that adds a tag item to show mode S capability, and even automatically [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ign squawk 1000 for flights within the mode S zone.

 

Would love to see VATEUD involved in this, thanks Nicolas!

[Martin Loxbo]

I fly the 737 out of Barcelona and so far I've only been [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned A1000 when flying into LIRF. In that case it happens when entering Italian airspace, where you will always get a new code [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned anyway.

 

On VATSIM, since we know the callsign of each aircraft we could simply [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ume that all aircraft have mode S. In Europe these days, mode S is a requirement almost everywhere so this would be a fairly realistic interpretation.

 

Using equipment codes would work in a perfect world, but personally I set up ES to ignore them a long time ago as there were so many flights showing up with warnings for not being RVSM approved, for example. Then you have to ask the pilot if he is RVSM approved, and chances are the pilots who fail to file a proper code will also have no clue about RVSM (or RNAV or Mode S...).

 

As for SSR code allocation, several years ago I have tried to suggest to VATEUD to implement a more realistic SSR code allocation based on ORCAM. The interest was ZERO. In Sweden we are now using the TopSky plugin which has an automatic SSR code allocation feature. The logic can be defined in a text file and we have set it up to mimic the official Code Allocation List. The plugin is available here in the Swedish ES file package in case anyone is interested.

[Pavel Brodsky]

Nicolas, did you find any time to discuss this with VATEUD?

 

Pavel

[Pavel Brodsky]

Any change?

 

Pavel

[Pierre Ferran]

I'd really like to see this move forward too.

[Andreas Fuchs]

Better send him a private message or an e-mail, he might not be checking this thread.

[Matthew Moy 1288933]

Also, if we get the Mode-S on VATSIM, Pilot client will need to get updated and generate a S Ident. I can give more information if needed.

[Pavel Brodsky]

Matthew, thats not exactly right. Today every pilot client is transmitting the aircraft callsign. It is only matter of Euroscope if we decide to display this callsign when the code is set to 1000, or not. I know how real Mode S works and what all data are transmitted by the DAP (Downlink Aircraft Parameters), and I know they are not simulated on VATSIM (IAS, baro settings, etc), but the callsign should work. We will not get the 24bit aircraft address, but the callsign directly.

 

Pavel

[Matthew Moy 1288933]

Yeah sorry, I meant if we wanted to implement the full data of Mode-S on VATSIM, which could be quite fun !

[Erik Wachters]

If you guys are interested, I could publish my "mode S" plugin that adds a tag item to show mode S capability, and even automatically [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ign squawk 1000 for flights within the mode S zone.

 

Yes "we" are

[Pierre Ferran]

Yes "we" are

 

Haha ok then, It should be on my github this weekend. As for the mode S string, I use HLEGWQS based on what I saw in different docomeentation, and based on what PFPX sends. But until we have the ICAO flight plan and a proper way to handle equipment codes, that'll always be a bit of a problem. It think we should agree on an official "mode S string".

 

As for the enriched mode S data, we already have the magnetic heading being sent over the network, would you like a tag item for that? And yes, thanks for the help Matthew, we have all the experts we need

 

I also agree, we don't care about the 24bits icao identifier, we have the correct callsign all the time.

[Matthew Moy 1288933]

Hey,

 

That was a bit stupid, I forgot about the callsign

 

In the UK, (I don't know how it works in others country) we got in the tag the selected altitude and the IAS, I'm not sure about Heading, I will need to check. But to get the selected altitude by the pilot I think we will need to get a pilot client able to pick up this kind of information!? Not sure about the IAS, I think pilot clients only pick's up the Ground Speed.

 

Pierre, I would be very interested into this plugin as I tried to create a Mode-S plugin but it didn't work, because I didn't had enough information from the client.

 

Thanks,

Matthew M.

[Pierre Ferran]

Yes, the pilot clients are not sending enought information as of yet to simulated the full mode S suit. But this topic is about the mode S correlation first, which is already technically possible. I didn't know the UK used any sort of mode S data, they don't use mode S correlation though.

[Johan Grauers]

Hey,

 

That was a bit stupid, I forgot about the callsign

 

In the UK, (I don't know how it works in others country) we got in the tag the selected altitude and the IAS, I'm not sure about Heading, I will need to check. But to get the selected altitude by the pilot I think we will need to get a pilot client able to pick up this kind of information!? Not sure about the IAS, I think pilot clients only pick's up the Ground Speed.

 

Pierre, I would be very interested into this plugin as I tried to create a Mode-S plugin but it didn't work, because I didn't had enough information from the client.

 

Thanks,

Matthew M.

 

The amount of DAPs displayed/available vary between the different UK systems. You need to remember that the UK is very diverse with many ANSPs, some don't have code-callsign conversion on their radar systems. Others have all sorts of gizmos.

 

Regardless, as Pierre says this data isn't sent by the pilot clients. In the future it might be possible to make some sort of add-on to a pilot client to read this sort of data fromt he aircraft and send it to the ATC. At the moment however there is no way to make such a system work for vatsim.

[Pavel Brodsky]

E-mailed Nicolas today, if I get any reply I will post it here.

 

Pierre, do you think you could publish that plugin for everyone? It looks more people would be interested

 

Pavel

[Pierre Ferran]

Here is the plugin: https://github.com/pierr3/Mode-S-PlugIn/

 

Simply download the dll and load it up, it will automatically [Mod - Happy Thoughts]ign code 1000 to aircrafts within the mode S zone that don't have a squawk code [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned. Some tag items are available, but no need to explain they are pretty explicit.

 

I used the following mode S string: HLEGWQS

Make sure you use that one in the EuroScope settings.

I also recommend adding "1000" to the VFR squawk list in the EuroScope settings to avoid having DUPE warning on mode S aircrafts.

 

The mode S zone I used for this Release: Belgium, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Germany, France, The Netherlands, Czech Republic, Austria, and for Italy I only added Milano (LIM*) and Roma (LIR*).

 

I know spain started using mode S, but was unsure about adding them to the list. Italy is also using mode S, but not sure if every mode S flights receives 1000.

[Martin Loxbo]

Here is the plugin: https://github.com/pierr3/Mode-S-PlugIn/

I know spain started using mode S, but was unsure about adding them to the list. Italy is also using mode S, but not sure if every mode S flights receives 1000.

 

I've never heard "squawk 1000" in Spain. Always in Italy though on certain routes, for example my LEBL-LIRF this morning.

 

I think all the concerned ATS units need mode S correlation. For example we never squawk 1000 going into LIME, LIPE or LIRA, but to LIRF we always squawk 1000. Going back from LIRF to LEBL we get a normal discrete mode A code - I guess it's so the French can identify us once we p[Mod - Happy Thoughts] the FIR boundary (they always give a new squawk anyway...).

[Andreas Fuchs]

Luckily we are not using SQ1000 everywhere yet. I would dearly miss my reply to the Italian ATC, asking us to "squawk ident": "squawk al dente"

[Pierre Ferran]

Luckily we are not using SQ1000 everywhere yet. I would dearly miss my reply to the Italian ATC, asking us to "squawk ident": "squawk al dente"

 

That's a good one

 

Martin, Italy and France are not in the same ORCAM Region, so a squawk change is mandatory, expect if the two countries have agreed to use mode S between regions. Madrid FIR has started doing that with Brest FIR recently. In the region of M[Mod - Happy Thoughts]ille you are flying, some range problem due to mode S probably makes it safer to use mode C. The radar coverage in this part of the Mediterranean sea is not perfect!

[Johan Grauers]

Here is the plugin: https://github.com/pierr3/Mode-S-PlugIn/

I know spain started using mode S, but was unsure about adding them to the list. Italy is also using mode S, but not sure if every mode S flights receives 1000.

 

I've never heard "squawk 1000" in Spain. Always in Italy though on certain routes, for example my LEBL-LIRF this morning.

 

I think all the concerned ATS units need mode S correlation. For example we never squawk 1000 going into LIME, LIPE or LIRA, but to LIRF we always squawk 1000. Going back from LIRF to LEBL we get a normal discrete mode A code - I guess it's so the French can identify us once we p[Mod - Happy Thoughts] the FIR boundary (they always give a new squawk anyway...).

 

I think I've read somewhere that you get [Mod - Happy Thoughts]igned 1000 if your entire reminder of flight (possibly reminder within that ORCAM region but not sure) is mode S units (here meaining units that identify using mode S, some, like EGTT, have mode S but don't use it for identification).

 

Ie if you fly Amsterdam to say Munich that would be 1000, because you only p[Mod - Happy Thoughts] mode S units, but if you fly munich to London you would be given a standard code straight away to avoid the need for a code change at the UK border.

 

 

I can try and find the reference at some point, but there was some sort of logic to it anyway.