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Don't use SIMBRIEF (or any other flightplanning tool) blindly


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47 minutes ago, Torben Andersen said:

Next time I sit at a ground position in EKCH those darn pilots will get reroutes 🙂

You mean, they did not get re-routed in the presence of ATC? That may be part of the "problem": how should pilots learn if they don't get corrected?

1 hour ago, Torben Andersen said:

I often use https://flightaware.com when flying in the US. Guess, real world popularity is allright in contrast to Simbrief's system.

Yes, of course. Skyvector, Flightaware etc. all use the same route database in the US, that's why you get the same results.

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As this type of flight planning is difficult or at least takes quite a lot of effort and right resources, these mistakes happen. In real life dispatch/operations does the flight planning, for airliners. Do the pilots check that flight levels, airway directions, temporary restrictions (in Notams) are correct for cross Europe flight? Or do they mostly rely on the ready made flight plan?

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I guess, we as atc, also get a little sloppy at time and only check if the route is valid, but not if it is "the best". And also depends on how much traffic the atc has to handle. It would be nice if the evaluation was done by e.g. Simbrief (as I've  used Simbrief given routes here, but any other routeplanner tool has issues too), but I don't think this is going to happen. You as a pilot or as controller has do to the work yourself. Which means that your workflow, when doing flightplanning should focus into these aspects. Offcause other factors, like weather for instance, is naturally also a player in the planning process.

The main problem here is TIME. Are you as pilot too eager to get to the air, or are you as controller focussed on getting a flightplan approved quickly, so the pilots doesn't have to wait too long (and other pilot pilling up on the delivery cueue). IRW you need to hand in the flightplan in good time, so atc has time to process it. In our world things are a bit different. 

As controller I could choose to say: "Hey, why should I care, if your route if longer and has bends and twists in it, which could be avoided. That's your choise". But I do care, as VATSIM is also about education. And also because flying a "stupid"route gives me additional work as controller, as I would have to merge planes. which IRL wouldn't have had to be merged. For me, the planning process is mainly the pilot's responcibility and atc should merely had to check if a route "looks" ok. The checking takes time, we as atc do not have, but the pilot should have, as he could have done it hours or even days in advance. But I think it is our job as atc, to nudge to pilots into that direction: Planning is vital and take whatever time it takes to do. It could even be fun (?). 

Sorry - taking up too many words by now. 

Cheers

Edited by Torben Andersen

Torben Andersen, VACC-SCA Controller (C1)

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@Lauri Uusitalo you're right, that IRL at least airliner pilots do not have to check with Eurocontrol. But that's because they have as staff behind them, who does the "dirty work" for them. In our World, we are our own Dispatcher, so we ought to do that job ourself. In a small corporate or private I guess you have to do it yourself as well, but RW pilot can correct me, if I'm wrong.

Torben Andersen, VACC-SCA Controller (C1)

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1 hour ago, Lauri Uusitalo said:

Do the pilots check that flight levels, airway directions, temporary restrictions (in Notams) are correct for cross Europe flight? Or do they mostly rely on the ready made flight plan?

In many professional outfits you will find professional flight dispatchers who perform ALL planning duties. Especially in Europe, this is a complex task. I do not fly airliners, but business jets, but we are operating almost 100 of them in Europe and there's no way that us pilots would have the time and capacity to do this as we tend to perform up to 4 flights per day. Ground staff receive and print our flight packages, we simply use them. We still have to review the weather and terminal NOTAM information, nothing for the enroute bit. Pilots are there to fly the planes, flight dispatchers are specialists in producing valid and sensible routings - of course mistakes are made from time to time, we are just humans. And then it is the turn of ATC to come up with a better/correct routing.

Edited by Andreas Fuchs
typing errors
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2 hours ago, Torben Andersen said:

Another example NOT TO BE FOLLOWED by my dear flying VATSIM pilots: EKCH - EDDH (Copenhagen - Hamburg).

Why do pilots insist using the LANGO departure out of EKCH, when the NEXEN (for jets)/KOPEX (for props) are so much better?

image.png.b15bc9430b698adfd1ac5629955aabe6.pngLANGO

image.png.97ba2e92f25729efc605f72a44f6fa0c.pngNEXEN

I can only imagine that the process of flight preparation has a much lower status than it should have. Next time I sit at a ground position in EKCH those darn pilots will get reroutes 🙂

hehe...I think even as a first time flyer I would have questioned that route.

Having said that I have seen some, what I used to consider bizarre SID's and STAR's but after a while one gets to learn the reasons why they are the way they are,  however I think that is far enough along the route to make me take a closer look.

First few times I flew (I was quite young still)  I remember looking out of window and thinking to myself,  hang on why are we turning back towards the airport!. Or wondering why we few straight past it on approach.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 12/10/2021 at 1:18 AM, Kirk Christie said:

I get my European routes from here.

https://www.edi-gla.co.uk/user/login

Also where I get PBN, Mode S and real remarks from.

I just found that site 30 minutes from a Google search.

I am currently flying from EGPH to EIDW. I have always used Navigraph to automatically compile a route. It used to give a more direct one from EGPH or EGPF to EIDW, but a few months ago it changed to far less direct.

The controller at EGPH changed me to what I think is the route Navigraph used to auto select.

Every day is a school day with this hobby!

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For a flight between airports on the British Isles the best source is the SRD spreadsheet from the UK AIP which you can find here. It gives you one route between EGPH and EIDW for jets (GOSAM dep) and one for props (TLA). I've seen before that Simbrief doesn't always distinguish between departure restrictions. In Copenhagen a not little amount of traffic files e.g. a KOPEX departure instead of a NEXEN dep, though it is clearly stated on the SID that KOPEX is for PROPS and NEXEN is for JETS. Perhaps that was the case for you in EGPH?

Torben Andersen, VACC-SCA Controller (C1)

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