New Forum?

[Alistair Thomson]

A question was asked in the new Forum about how, or if, this current existing wealth of forum discussion in its present form would be available in the new setting. I tried to look at that thread, but my VATSIM credentials were not sufficient. I needed to declare my Google account as well. That doesn't seem to be very helpful or VATSIM-inclusive. A bit too intrusive from my perspective. Does a VATSIM member need to have a Google account too, in order to contribute to these new forums? Surely not! So what's the deal?

[Filippo Genoni]

Speaking for myself,

I pressed Login and got redirected normally to https://auth.vatsim.net.

(I don't know what's going on as I don't really know how the forum works and all, just saying I never encountered Google's Auth while accessing the forum)

 

Kind Regards,

Filippo,

[Tim Waldon]

I logged into the new forum yesterday as well as today, and I was only redirected to the Vatsim credential auth system. The same SSO server used for my.vatsim.net. I was never redirected to authenticate using a Google account.

[Alistair Thomson]

Thanks guys! It is strange. I was able to access some posts with no issues this morning. :-[

By the way, I don't know if this is relevant or not, but I haven't logged in to the new Forum yet... At least, I haven't pressed the Login button.  I have been accessing the posts as guest, I suppose.

Edited December 14, 2022 at 02:07 PM by Alistair Thomson

[Andrew McCabe]

6 hours ago, Tim Waldon said:

I logged into the new forum yesterday as well as today, and I was only redirected to the Vatsim credential auth system. The same SSO server used for my.vatsim.net. I was never redirected to authenticate using a Google account.

Same here, was directed to the SSO server for log in.

[Martijn Rammeloo]

Black letters on a darkish blue background are hard to read. Blue headers on a blue background are almost impossible to read.

[Andrew McCabe]

I wonder if you have a different colour scheme active ?    Check in Preferences >>> Interface.   Mine is set to Default and the scheme is mainly black text on white background.

 

[Alistair Thomson]

Will there be a migration process, with this forum's contents transferring to the new one?

[Trevor Hannant]

2 hours ago, Alistair Thomson said:

Will there be a migration process, with this forum's contents transferring to the new one?

https://forum.vatsim.net/t/will-old-content-be-retained-somewhere/109

[Callum McLoughlin]

I might have missed the explanation of why the forum is being moved onto what looks like a less capable platform? IPBoard is probably the best forum software going, why are we going back in time to something that looks terrible and wasting time doing it that could be spent doing something more productive?

[Lars Bergmann]

1 hour ago, Callum McLoughlin said:

I might have missed the explanation of why the forum is being moved onto what looks like a less capable platform? IPBoard is probably the best forum software going, why are we going back in time to something that looks terrible and wasting time doing it that could be spent doing something more productive?

Reading the 2022Q3 BoG Meeting Minutes the reason seems to be cost:

Quote

VATSIM Forums Closure/Replacement: The department is currently looking at options
to close/replace the VATSIM Forums. The cost of running and maintaining the current
VATSIM forums is high compared to the actual usage, especially compared to the daily
activity we see on the Community Discord Server, which is basically free to operate.
Options that are being looked into:
• Discord Forum Channels to replace the most active forum categories.
• Alternative Free Forum Software to replace the most active forum categories.
• Public Static Archive of the current VATSIM Forums
Closing the VATSIM Forums means an alternative is needed to post announcements to
the VATSIM.net website and my.vatsim.net. Marketing is working with Tech to
find/build a suitable replacement.

 

[Alistair Thomson]

Discord chat is no substritute for forum discussion, but I get it that the fleeting transience of Discord contributions is more suited to the preferences of the majority of the membeship these days. It's unfortunate that the perhaps more thoughtful minority will suffer, and if that sounds like an elitist remark, it is nevertheless a possibility.

I also get it that VATSIM may have financial issues to the extent that something as valuable as a good, rich discussion environment is deemed to be not financially worth it in terms of usage. That is a pity, particularly when VATSIM intends to focus even more on Education, where forum history is an Alladin's cave of useful material, unlike a Discord channel which is mostly an unstructured stream of consciousness. Sure, there are good questions there, and good aswers, but try finding them.

I think the loss of a great forum is bad for VATSIM, but closing down as a result of lack of finances is even worse. 

[Andreas Fuchs]

I do not think that VATSIM has a financial problem. Now, that VATSIM can officially accept donations, this should be even less of a problem. EDIT: but I would not hurt if we had more members donating, and if it is just 5 or 10 USD, the equivalent of a cup of coffee. I did not have time yet, but I am going to donate a good chunk of money soon.

Edited February 3, 2023 at 06:53 PM by Andreas Fuchs

[Alistair Thomson]

I see that vatsim.uk uses Invision forum software too. So far, they apparently haven't found it necessary to downgrade, despite the fact that their forum is a good deal quieter than this one.

[Callum McLoughlin]

BAVirtual also uses Invision Power Board. Now the software is purchased, it is FREE. The only need for money to change hands is to continue the UPGRADE licence. As such the cost perspective is mute. If a reason is given of ‘security’ and ‘patches’ - what guarantee is there that the free software is as secure, and will continue to be patched?

If cost is being given as a driver, I think we need a bit more of an explanation to address the above. This seems like a classic case of VATSIM staff faffing about with websites rather than doing something useful.

Can we have an explanation from the BoG to provide reassurance that there is a factor we are not aware of, before a valuable resource and repository of DECADES of information is irretrievably trashed?? @Tim Barber

Edited February 5, 2023 at 04:03 PM by Callum McLoughlin

[Sean Harrison]

I hope they reverse the decision.  This forum is by far superior to the end user compared to the hard to navigate, simplistic option.  If it is purely a financial reason, perhaps a donate button or call for assistance like Wikipedia does.  It will be detrimental to loose this forum; content and currently offered options layout.

On a related note, will there now be a financial report tabled at the Executive meetings, considering our change of status.

[Alistair Thomson]

8 minutes ago, Sean Harrison said:

On a related note, will there now be a financial report tabled at the Executive meetings, considering our change of status

Good point. It probably depends on the terms of the incorporation. Whatever, I think it behooves the BoG to inform its potentially contributing members, to assist them in making a decision re. a contribution, whether it's legally required or not.

[Nicholas Cavacini]

8 hours ago, Callum McLoughlin said:

BAVirtual also uses Invision Power Board. Now the software is purchased, it is FREE. The only need for money to change hands is to continue the UPGRADE licence. As such the cost perspective is mute. If a reason is given of ‘security’ and ‘patches’ - what guarantee is there that the free software is as secure, and will continue to be patched?

If cost is being given as a driver, I think we need a bit more of an explanation to address the above. This seems like a classic case of VATSIM staff faffing about with websites rather than doing something useful.

Can we have an explanation from the BoG to provide reassurance that there is a factor we are not aware of, before a valuable resource and repository of DECADES of information is irretrievably trashed?? @Tim Barber

Not applying security patches is not a solution in today's age of constant cyber threats. Zero-day vulnerabilities are discovered in software every day and are not resolved until the developers put out a patch and said patch is installed. It behooves everyone, including the user base, to ensure that we remain up to date with the software we choose.

As to what guarantee do we have that other software is as secure? Its based on risk/cost benefit analysis, as is every decision. There are no guarantees in life. The Discourse forum software is open source software that is also used by Microsoft Flight Simulator's forums. Being open source allows anyone to peer review the code, submit bugs/security issues, and suggest improvements. With more eyes on the code, it is easier to spot items which need to be resolved. Being open source also makes it more likely that the software will remain viable into the future because again, the code is open to everyone and not reliant on a business to survive.

I would recommend that you review the BoG meeting minutes in regards to the reasoning for the change. I would also recommend that you review Jannes' reply regarding archiving this forum. The data will be retained in an easy to reach location. If you have further questions, I would recommend that you reach out to the Marketing department as the forums fall under their purview.

 

5 hours ago, Alistair Thomson said:

Good point. It probably depends on the terms of the incorporation. Whatever, I think it behooves the BoG to inform its potentially contributing members, to assist them in making a decision re. a contribution, whether it's legally required or not.

The Board of Directors handle all financial matters of VATSIM Inc, not the Board of Governors. I would have to refer you to the BoD and the Frequently Asked Questions page with your questions. That being said, VATSIM Inc is required to file financial data with the IRS each year, which is made available to the public.

[Andreas Fuchs]

11 hours ago, Nicholas Cavacini said:

The Board of Directors handle all financial matters of VATSIM Inc, not the Board of Governors. I would have to refer you to the BoD and the Frequently Asked Questions page with your questions. That being said, VATSIM Inc is required to file financial data with the IRS each year, which is made available to the public.

Will it be made public by the IRS and "the public" will have to go searching for it with a magnifier glass, or is VATSIM going to actively and openly publish its financial status at regular intervals? Please don't misunderstand me, I am not trying to insinuate that something illegal may be going on. The point is: publishing the data (required funding vs. actual balance) will motivate more members to give a little, because we all want our network to prosper.
That's how it is done at VATSIM Germany (at least when I was on the hot seat there) and it worked very well.

[Callum McLoughlin]

Edit: Forget it. There is zero point wasting my energy on this.

Edited February 6, 2023 at 05:36 PM by Callum McLoughlin

[Alistair Thomson]

7 hours ago, Andreas Fuchs said:

Is VATSIM going to actively and openly publish its financial status at regular intervals?

According to the FAQ, members will be given the link to the financial report when available, probably by forum post. And IDK but maybe the BoG will get a monthly/quarterly report from the BoD which might appear in minutes.

[Mike Sweeney]

7 hours ago, Andreas Fuchs said:

Will it be made public by the IRS

Hi Andreas,
For annual data, IRS Form 990 or variant is (typically filed by May 15th and) available online:
https://apps.irs.gov/app/eos/
Search by:
EIN: 88-0609254
or
Organization Name: Vatsim Inc.
and for example, expenses reported on Form 990, Part IX.

..........

Regarding forum platform, agreed.
2.5 year lifetime appears short (when compared to 16 years for previous forum technology, 2004-2020).
Hopefully there's further consideration for a way to continue status quo, and any security/financial challenges may be resolved without a need for a new forum platform/software.

Also note: In 2020, the older forum transitioned to current ... and all prior content was migrated.

p.s. Thanks again to Brant, Nick, Ryan and co. for working through forum glitches in 2020 (April - Sept).
Your time and efforts, listening and acting on user feedback ... still greatly appreciated!

[Andreas Fuchs]

Thanks Mike! The forum deal seems to be sealed and I wonder what the archive of the current forum will look like. The new forum is okayish, but not my favourite. I still vote for keeping the current platform up and update it.

Also looking forward to VATSIM making more announcements to make members aware of the possibility and need to donate a few bucks to keep our network running.

[Alistair Thomson]

4 hours ago, Andreas Fuchs said:

Also looking forward to VATSIM making more announcements to make members aware of the possibility and need to donate a few bucks to keep our network running

+1. I don't know how many members we have, but the count started, I think, with 80000, and the most recent member has a serial no. of around 1,640,000, so we can assume a max of around 1.5 MIllion members. Divide that by two due to wastage and we have a current active membership of maybe 800K members. In order to accrue $12000 per annum, each member on average should therefore contribute 1.5 cents per year.

But not everyone will contribute. Let's say that one in a hundred will. All that 1% needs to do is contribute $1.50 per year. Is that so difficult to achieve, that the bosses feel the need to kill a significant resource (apparently consiidered to be an albatross) in order to survive?

And where are the calls for financial support? Apart from a sideline in a FAQ, where is the push for contributions? I definitely don't support the Wikipedia approach which can be overbearing (although I value that service and contribute $10 per month to their efforts) but some heightened awareness among members that this environment of ours is not cheap, must be given more prominence. It came as a shock to me to see that VATSIM is considered by the BoG to be hanging by such a slender thread.

[Richard Jenkins]

19 hours ago, Mike Sweeney said:

Hi Andreas,
For annual data, IRS Form 990 or variant is (typically filed by May 15th and) available online:
https://apps.irs.gov/app/eos/
Search by:
EIN: 88-0609254
or
Organization Name: Vatsim Inc.
and for example, expenses reported on Form 990, Part IX.

..........

Regarding forum platform, agreed.
2.5 year lifetime appears short (when compared to 16 years for previous forum technology, 2004-2020).
Hopefully there's further consideration for a way to continue status quo, and any security/financial challenges may be resolved without a need for a new forum platform/software.

Also note: In 2020, the older forum transitioned to current ... and all prior content was migrated.

p.s. Thanks again to Brant, Nick, Ryan and co. for working through forum glitches in 2020 (April - Sept).
Your time and efforts, listening and acting on user feedback ... still greatly appreciated!

Just a heads up. For 2022 VATSIM will file Form 990-N because our total donations received was $0. VATSIM's bills in 2022 were paid by a small group of individuals privately. For 2023, VATSIM is allowed to file Form 990-N but it will file Form 990EZ for much more detail and the increased transparency.

RJ