Unacceptable sudden volume increase

[Nestor Perez]

If it was as simple as “the volume is too high”, then it would affect every user, whereas this doesn’t affect even 5% of our userbase. This issue doesn’t happen to most people, and they are all using the volume slider without any issues; hence why it is not removed or forced to be at the minimum.

That being said, I’m glad setting it at -72 solves it for you and everyone else who is experiencing this issue; thus allowing everyone to use the system and communicate with one another while we continue to dig into it 🙂

Edited October 2, 2020 at 02:35 PM by Nestor Perez

[Yanick Coulombe 965064]

3 hours ago, Nestor Perez said:

If it was as simple as “the volume is too high”, then it would affect every user, whereas this doesn’t affect even 5% of our userbase. This issue doesn’t happen to most people, and they are all using the volume slider without any issues; hence why it is not removed or forced to be at the minimum.

That being said, I’m glad setting it at -72 solves it for you and everyone else who is experiencing this issue; thus allowing everyone to use the system and communicate with one another while we continue to dig into it 🙂

You clearly never experienced it if you downplay it like this. When experienced for the first time, this issue will instantly make the user throw his headset into his screen. The volume becomes so high in a matter of a second or 2 and any headset/speakers cannot handle it and after going 10x the recommended number of dB for that device it just starts simply beeping weird screeches and producing silence.

You are downplaying this issue. This can cause real hearing problems and I can think of 3 easy fix right now.

Please fix this before someone gets permanent hearing damage, I think this is irresponsible.
You don't need to fix the core of the issue, but workarounds are easy.

""If it was as simple as “the volume is too high”, then it would affect every user"
You are misinterpreting what I mean. This is not what I meant obviously. For 100% of affected users, the problem IS "the volume is too high". Just place a hard limit on the number of decibel than can go out of your application, or use a 3rd party app to do so and bundle it silently. Try something at least!

This isn't hard to fix and should be done before people get permanent hearing damage.
If what you say is true and only 5% of people are having this problem, it means that on the current 987 VATSIM connection, 47 are having the issue live. I understand those are not real numbers, but the problem here is real and easy to fix. Limit the number of decibel that your program can put out to a user before someone sues you for negligence, that's my advice!

Good luck,
Yanick Coulombe

P.S. If you insist in on not fixing, I suggest that at least write in the EULA that any hearing damage is not your fault or something. This is unprecedented levels of volume boosting, it's scary that windows even allows this level of ear rape!

Edited October 2, 2020 at 06:04 PM by Yanick Coulombe 965064

[Nestor Perez]

I do experience it myself, yes. And the solution was as simple as dragging the volume slider in the client down.

It is not 100% users that experience it. It is 100% out of the less than 5% of the users that experience it. Be assured we are working on it. There's no need for harsh posts like these which just take the motivation of doing it away.

Also, as has been mentioned above, feel free to try the application suggested by other members to limit the maximum output in the meantime. Remember nobody is forcing you to use audio either.

All the best,

 

[Yanick Coulombe 965064]

41 minutes ago, Nestor Perez said:

I do experience it myself, yes. And the solution was as simple as dragging the volume slider in the client down.

It is not 100% users that experience it. It is 100% out of the less than 5% of the users that experience it. Be assured we are working on it. There's no need for harsh posts like these which just take the motivation of doing it away.

Also, as has been mentioned above, feel free to try the application suggested by other members to limit the maximum output in the meantime. Remember nobody is forcing you to use audio either.

All the best,

 

I do have to use voice when I control due to FIR policies obviously.

When you say your motivation is going down. I've never experienced motivation going down from criticism on my projects, it means people care and want a fix. Meanwhile our instructors are deprived of secondary frequencies. We aren't able to properly cover all of our FIR because of unfair limitations on transmitters. The only thing harsh here is the number of decibel you are putting out. My motivation goes down when I CANNOT control because of said problem and I'm forced to log out shamefully as a chief in front of my mates.

Like I said before, I'm sorry if I'm coming out strong, but if you need help for this simple problem I can help you with a temporary workaround. I have looked for a way to apply to the team, but it seems like it's handpicked or I might be blind? I'm sure you will deny my help for security reasons and you did the same for all the simple workaround I suggested and that makes me feel powerless to a problem seemingly simple to my eyes.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the original problem is easy to fix, but a good number of simple workaround seemingly would.

Maybe you need more help with this project, is it possible to provide some, I'm guessing not?

Good luck,
Yanick Coulombe

Edited October 2, 2020 at 05:32 PM by Yanick Coulombe 965064

[Robert Shearman Jr]

Nestor, unless there's been a comprehensive poll, I don't agree with your assertion that 5% of VATSIM userbase is experiencing this.  5% may be reporting it, 20% may experience it but see that it's already been reported, and 35% may experience it but have no idea where to report it.

Now, of course, I just made those numbers up.  But I suspect you also made up the 5% you stated unless you can point us to some data to support that.

Personally, I never experienced it myself, but watched *numerous* livestreams of others who did.  Much more than 5% of the streamers I watch regularly.  After months of discussion with them and here on the forums, I deduced that the reason I was immune was that I did NOT use the slider within xPilot to increase the output volume, but, used external sound apps (VoiceMeeter as well as the native Windows mixer) to balance all of the other sounds to xPilot's default value.  And that worked fine, and I stayed immune.

Recently, however, xPilot implemented a "feature" in which the volume in the app would be tied to simulated in-aircraft volume knobs.  Unfortunately, (a) not all simulated in-aircraft radios have obviously modeled volume knobs, and (b) it seems to default at 100% volume unless you figure out where to adjust it.  So, as of late, I'm now been victimized by this bug, too.

Has there been any development on AFV to try to hunt this down?  We've not gotten any true updates on it in months.  Have those gents retired or moved on to other projects?

[Nestor Perez]

 

24 minutes ago, Robert Shearman Jr said:

Recently, however, xPilot implemented a "feature" in which the volume in the app would be tied to simulated in-aircraft volume knobs.  Unfortunately, (a) not all simulated in-aircraft radios have obviously modeled volume knobs, and (b) it seems to default at 100% volume unless you figure out where to adjust it.  So, as of late, I'm now been victimized by this bug, too.

xPilot uses an AFV version with a possible fix for this issue which has not been merged into any of the other clients as of now, hence why a while back I asked for everyone to let us know which clients and versions they were experiencing this with. Still waiting for more than 3 or 4 replies. Anyway, judging by the fact that you say you've started experiencing this bug too I assume the possible fix has not worked. Please report in the xPilot forum that it has only started affecting you after an update on this client.

24 minutes ago, Robert Shearman Jr said:

Has there been any development on AFV to try to hunt this down?  We've not gotten any true updates on it in months.  Have those gents retired or moved on to other projects?

As stated above, xPilot is using an updated version with a possible fix for the spontaneous audio. We're looking forward to hearing more feedback about this issue happening (or not) in xPilot!

 

1 hour ago, Yanick Coulombe 965064 said:

When you say your motivation is going down. I've never experienced motivation going down from criticism on my projects, it means people care and want a fix.

So do we, Yanick. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about exactly now that you've edited your post to turn it into constructive criticism after it wasn't being approved 🙂

1 hour ago, Yanick Coulombe 965064 said:

Meanwhile our instructors are deprived of secondary frequencies. We aren't able to properly cover all of our FIR because of unfair limitations on transmitters.

What are you refering to exactly? Your local Facility Engineer can configure transceivers at his/her will, and instructors can monitor secondary frequencies by simply clicking "+" and entering the callsign in the standalone client.

1 hour ago, Yanick Coulombe 965064 said:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the original problem is easy to fix, but a good number of simple workaround seemingly would.

This is exactly what that "setting your slider to below 0" is: a workaround which has helped the majority of members that have experienced this issue. So is the app that other members have suggested to achieve exactly what you're suggesting about limiting the maximum volume output. You mention that setting it to -72 fixes the issue for you, but then you can't hear pilots. In that case, have you given the app a try? How has it gone?

1 hour ago, Yanick Coulombe 965064 said:

Maybe you need more help with this project, is it possible to provide some, I'm guessing not?

That is unfortunately not something I can decide. Please reach out to VPDev if you think you can lend a hand!

 

Finally, I just want to make it clear: constructive critics are more than welcome. I am willing to hear as many of those as there is, and I'm sure that's the case with everyone doing something for VATSIM! What I don't take on nicely is destructive criticism (AKA throwing sh*t at one another).

Many thanks for your interest on this.

Blue skies,

[Yanick Coulombe 965064]

Sorry if it took long to reply, but I was kinda discouraged by your answer. Honestly also the fact that you thought necessary to mute me here, so it quickly wasn't a priority.

 

On 10/2/2020 at 2:43 PM, Nestor Perez said:

 

xPilot uses an AFV version with a possible fix for this issue which has not been merged into any of the other clients as of now, hence why a while back I asked for everyone to let us know which clients and versions they were experiencing this with. Still waiting for more than 3 or 4 replies. Anyway, judging by the fact that you say you've started experiencing this bug too I assume the possible fix has not worked. Please report in the xPilot forum that it has only started affecting you after an update on this client.

As stated above, xPilot is using an updated version with a possible fix for the spontaneous audio. We're looking forward to hearing more feedback about this issue happening (or not) in xPilot!

I'm sorry, is there not a 'pipeline' where the sound is coming out of your application, can't you just apply a maximum volume of some sort,, you never answered that. One day I'll put myself to it and release AFVF(Audio for VATSIM Fixed), and it'll just be a binded application with a decibel limiter or something xD (joke obviously that wouldn't be legal). To me it seems like an easy fix. If it was important to fix it you would not have deactivated it on your part(You said "I do experience it myself, yes. And the solution was as simple as dragging the volume slider in the client down.", I only assume you are flying with this solution applied). If you really want this fixed, reactivate the problem on your side and at least test it and try to find pattern. Instead, from my point of view, it seems like the only person able to understand the patterns have fixed it on their end?

 

On 10/2/2020 at 2:43 PM, Nestor Perez said:

What are you refering to exactly? Your local Facility Engineer can configure transceivers at his/her will, and instructors can monitor secondary frequencies by simply clicking "+" and entering the callsign in the standalone client.

 Sorry, but there is a lack of communication somewhere because we were told by the AFV team that our whole FIR Center could only have something like 32 transmitters maximum, despite our coverage area being about the size of all Europe.

Thanks for the help,
Yanick

P.S. I know it must be irritating when people say: "can't you just".

Edited October 25, 2020 at 03:28 PM by Yanick Coulombe 965064

[Nestor Perez]

1 hour ago, Yanick Coulombe 965064 said:

I'm sorry, is there not a 'pipeline' where the sound is coming out of your application, can't you just apply a maximum volume of some sort,, you never answered that

We could, but that would just be a bodge and not an actual fix. Other people have already provided external programs especifically for this purpose.

 

1 hour ago, Yanick Coulombe 965064 said:

If it was important to fix it you would not have deactivated it on your part(You said "I do experience it myself, yes. And the solution was as simple as dragging the volume slider in the client down.", I only assume you are flying with this solution applied). If you really want this fixed, reactivate the problem on your side and at least test it and try to find pattern. Instead, from my point of view, it seems like the only person able to understand the patterns have fixed it on their end?

As you stated before, if I don't use the workaround I will most likely end up with hearing problems too 🙂. The fact that I have applied the workaround on my side doesn't mean I'm not still trying to find a pattern. It is still noticeable when the "earraping" happens; it just doesn't make you deaf when it happens😛.

 

1 hour ago, Yanick Coulombe 965064 said:

Sorry, but there is a lack of communication somewhere because we were told by the AFV team that our whole FIR Center could only have something like 32 transmitters maximum, despite our coverage area being about the size of all Europe.

This limitation was removed a long time ago. Here is an extract of the Facility engineers channel (Red = Facility Engineer, Blue = AFV Dev, Purple = Another AFV Dev):

 

1 hour ago, Yanick Coulombe 965064 said:

One day I'll put myself to it and release AFVF(Audio for VATSIM Fixed), and it'll just be a binded application with a decibel limiter or something xD (joke obviously that wouldn't be legal).

I mean... feel free to try fixing it (not bodging it) haha. Hit me up if you find anything out! 😛

[Mike Lehkamp]

Food for thought. Europe , and Montreal, are pretty small when comparing the two to the bulk of users worldwide.

Be positive. They will fix it!

Edited October 28, 2020 at 09:45 AM by Mike Lehkamp

[David Thurstan]

Hi All.

I have experienced this issue too quite a lot whilst observing - it happened about five times yesterday when I was obs'ing CTP over 12ish hours. When I was first using AfV (the original release) I never had it happen and I believe it started happening some time ago when I installed the last update of AfV. Not sure if that is a red herring or if the issue could be a side effect of some change from the  previous release in the update.

Just a thought.

[Matthew Crawford]

Any update on the AFV Rx volume blowing itself out that's been an issue being fixed? I've just had it five times in the last hour while flying KPHL-KATL tonight. It physically hurts.

I've tried to mitigate it by dropping the pilot client gain down super low, lowering the pilot client software volume, and lowering the input gain to OBS for my stream, and AFV seems to completely overrule these settings. It's always the same EXTREMELY high gain blowout, and ignores my gain/volume settings in anything. It's honestly getting ridiculous at this point after a year.

If I'm being honest, the way that it "phenomena" seems to be able to blatantly ignore multiple methods of lowering the volume & gain leads me to think this is a codec error. Not user error at this point. I've lowered my volume & gain in xPilot itself, as well as lowering the Output volume to xPilot as a whole in the OS to the point where the audio might as well be muted, but as soon as the "phenomena" happens, my volume & gain meters get a MASSIVE blowout far, far above the peak. It's as if AFV is ignoring all levels of software control entirely when it happens.

 

[Nestor Perez]

Hey Matthew,

It is definitely not user error; don't think I ever said that anywhere. All the things about lowering the volume are just possible workarounds.

As you said it is most likely an issue with the Codec version we use. You can see the same issue happening with similar working programs here:

• https://support.discord.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/360058685452-Why-does-discord-randomly-become-very-loud-
• https://github.com/mumble-voip/mumble/issues/957

As you can see from the 2nd example above, where the issue has been open since 2013 -and assuming it is the same cause-, it is not that easy to fix. That said, the AFV Team is still very aware of this issue, and have actually managed to experience it themselves in a few occassions, as can be seen at https://clips.twitch.tv/RelentlessJoyousChimpanzeeAliens.

I know this is most likely not the response you were looking forward to, but there's only so much I can do (in this case, inform you all about the status of this issue). While I also know that this is not really a fix, I'd suggest trying to use one of the third party programs mentioned earlier in this thread to try and limit the output volume of AFV. Also, if you guys manage to spot any similarities with any of the two issues linked above (be it hardware, software or anything else that might be related), please do let us know over here!

Thank you all for your patience with this.

Cheers,

[Matthew Crawford]

I hate to ask this again, but is there any status update on this issue? Flying the Cross The Land event, I had to ask the same controller three times in a row to repeat himself departing Dubai after having to physically throw my headphones off my ears. This also happened twice more in the span of five minutes transiting Tehran Radar.

I have said it before & I will say it again. NONE of the workarounds mentioned in this thread, nor elsewhere do anything. Not turning down the gain to 0, a negative number, lowering the actual pilot client audio in the OS, using third-party software mixers, nor adjusting the gain by force using a hardware mixer. THEY. DO. NOT. WORK.

At this point, it is getting ridiculous. Having no time to explain why I had to ask a controller to repeat himself THREE TIMES in a row because it is during a very busy event because they don't know what I've just had to deal with is making me think something serious needs to be done to eliminate this issue, because at this point, VATSIM after AFV is approaching inaccessibility to myself, and MANY other users. So what is the end game here?

This is ONLY VATSIM AFV. I DO NOT have this issue with any other software, I DO NOT have this issue with ANY other codec. Something needs to happen here, because this issue is only becoming more common the longer time goes on.

Edited February 13, 2021 at 02:25 PM by Matthew Crawford

[Yanick Coulombe 965064]

12 hours ago, Matthew Crawford said:

I hate to ask this again, but is there any status update on this issue? Flying the Cross The Land event, I had to ask the same controller three times in a row to repeat himself departing Dubai after having to physically throw my headphones off my ears. This also happened twice more in the span of five minutes transiting Tehran Radar.

I have said it before & I will say it again. NONE of the workarounds mentioned in this thread, nor elsewhere do anything. Not turning down the gain to 0, a negative number, lowering the actual pilot client audio in the OS, using third-party software mixers, nor adjusting the gain by force using a hardware mixer. THEY. DO. NOT. WORK.

At this point, it is getting ridiculous. Having no time to explain why I had to ask a controller to repeat himself THREE TIMES in a row because it is during a very busy event because they don't know what I've just had to deal with is making me think something serious needs to be done to eliminate this issue, because at this point, VATSIM after AFV is approaching inaccessibility to myself, and MANY other users. So what is the end game here?

This is ONLY VATSIM AFV. I DO NOT have this issue with any other software, I DO NOT have this issue with ANY other codec. Something needs to happen here, because this issue is only becoming more common the longer time goes on.

It seems it is not worked on IMO.

Edited February 14, 2021 at 03:04 AM by Yanick Coulombe 965064

[Marc Latz]

Joining the party with the same issue, on almost every session (it's just a function of how many transmissions).

Thank god I'm using external speakers and I've become very quick in just tuning them way down when I hear it starting. This is really very annoying. 

[Andreas Fuchs]

Have you guys tried using this 3rd party program that controls the output volume? This could be your cure until there will be an update to the current voice codec.

Edited February 14, 2021 at 10:14 AM by Andreas Fuchs

[Christoph Reule]

6 minutes ago, Andreas Fuchs said:

Have you guys tried using this 3rd party program that controls the output volume? This could be your cure until there will be an update to the current voice codec.

What "3rd party program" is this?

[Andreas Fuchs]

It was mentioned on the previous page of this thread:

 

[Matthew Crawford]

2 hours ago, Andreas Fuchs said:

Have you guys tried using this 3rd party program that controls the output volume? This could be your cure until there will be an update to the current voice codec.

As I mentioned twice before in this thread, none of these software workarounds work for me. It is as if it ignores any & all software values entirely.

[Andreas Fuchs]

Oh sorry, I missed this detail in your previous replies. Maybe there's another software that is "stronger" and really controls your maximum volume.

I am lucky to not experience this glitch anymore. It had happened to me some months ago, but only for one or two versions of our pilot client and it then disappeared.

Edited February 14, 2021 at 08:59 PM by Andreas Fuchs

[Marc Latz]

Lucky you!
I find that installing an application (which looks very much like bloatware) twiddling with all audio output to be a very much less than perfect solution. I never had this issue with any application on any platform before. As an intermediate solution disabling the "realistic sound effect" seems to be preferrable. 

Other than that, it might not be a volume issue but a gain issue after all (as has been mentioned before a couple of times), which might be the reason why software solutions aren't working for some people. Which is of course naive mumbo-jumbo on my part. 

[Alfredo Mungo]

Just saw this post and thought I could drop a +1 for statistical purposes. I've been experiencing this for quite some time now too on Win 10 + xPilot - quite frequent issue. I've become exceptionally good at recognising it and removing my headset 😄

[Tommy Pezzino]

I too experience this just about every session. Turning off ATC audio effects seemed to have helped. But now it sounds like everyone is transmitting from their bedroom, 6 feet away from their microphone. I think I've noticed the issue occurring most when people are getting stepped on (2 people are transmitting at the same time) but I am not 100% sure on that. I hope this is something that gets fixed. I am using the latest version of V-Pilot. 

[Dan Morera]

Here to check again on the issue?  Random radio chatter would result on ear piercing distorted audio. Must switch frequencies back and forth in order to go away.

[Jake Saw]

26 minutes ago, Dan Morera said:

Here to check again on the issue?  Random radio chatter would result on ear piercing distorted audio. Must switch frequencies back and forth in order to go away.

Which client?