ATC: how to approach beginners on the network

[Alistair Thomson]

On 1/12/2021 at 4:18 PM, Andreas Fuchs said:

Actually, if you did not understand an instruction, because it was too fast, you say say again slower.

I was just quoting CAP413, 1.6 Table 7 regarding standard words and phrases. Maybe ICAO doesn't have that, and probably FAA doesn't. I was also quoting that document re. the 100 WPM rate of speech. Ditto ICAO, ditto FAA.

[Andreas Fuchs]

And I quoted what we say in the real world 🙂

[Alistair Thomson]

20 hours ago, Andreas Fuchs said:

And I quoted what we say in the real world

So did I.

[Andreas Fuchs]

Yes, but you wrote what the book says, I had an example from the job. But hey, both ways will get the results.

PS: ICAO Doc 4444 (I got the 16th edition here) indeed does NOT state anything about "SAY AGAIN" in this context. It uses "SAY AGAIN" for ATC to emphasize an instruction: HOLD POSITION, CANCEL TAKE-OFF I SAY AGAIN CANCEL TAKE-OFF (reasons) and for conditional clearances: [THAT IS] CORRECT (or NEGATIVE) [I SAY AGAIN] ... (as appropriate)

Our German ATC provider DFS has its own set of phraseology and it contains some of the things that were mentioned on this and on the other thread:

• SAY AGAIN: „Repeat all, or the following part, of your last transmission“
• SPEAK SLOWER: „Reduce your rate of speech“

Therefore the combination would be "SAY AGAIN SLOWER", because "SAY AGAIN SPEAK SLOWER" does not sound right 😛

Edited January 14, 2021 at 07:54 PM by Andreas Fuchs
further information

[Martin Loxbo]

This:

29 minutes ago, Andreas Fuchs said:

ICAO Doc 4444 (I got the 16th edition here) indeed does NOT state anything about "SAY AGAIN" in this context.

... is because this:

29 minutes ago, Andreas Fuchs said:

• SAY AGAIN: „Repeat all, or the following part, of your last transmission“
• SPEAK SLOWER: „Reduce your rate of speech“

... is phraseology described in Annex 10.

[Andreas Fuchs]

Ah, I never checked Annex 10, thanks for filling my knowledge gap! Luckily, in the real world, we always find a way to get to some decent results, as long as both sides kind of speak the same language.

Edited January 15, 2021 at 11:25 AM by Andreas Fuchs

[Alistair Thomson]

20 hours ago, Andreas Fuchs said:

Luckily, in the real world, we always find a way to get to some decent results, as long as both sides kind of speak the same language.

That way is surely based on correct terminology. As a RW commercial pilot and flying instructor, I would have jumped down the throat of any of my students who decided to re-write the book.

[Andreas Fuchs]

1 hour ago, Alistair Thomson said:

As a RW commercial pilot and flying instructor, I would have jumped down the throat of any of my students who decided to re-write the book.

As a RW ATP rated captain I would not have accepted this 😄

[Jonas Helkey]

1 hour ago, Alistair Thomson said:

That way is surely based on correct terminology. As a RW commercial pilot and flying instructor, I would have jumped down the throat of any of my students who decided to re-write the book.

Certainly it's hard to disagree with your sentiment in general, but wherever humans communicate with one another, a degree of flexibility is needed in my opinion. Phraseology is absolutely a good thing, but if for whatever reason it cannot get a message across when deviating from it can, the better outcome must surely be the one where the message is recieved and understood rather than the one where the book was applied with utmost precision. Again, granted, that's not what you'd teach. But I'd argue it's a degree of flexibility you should be ready to show if the need arises.

[Alistair Thomson]

1 hour ago, Jonas Helkey said:

I'd argue it's a degree of flexibility you should be ready to show if the need arises.

And I see where you are coming from too, but the point is, who decides what to say? Andreas has said that "you should say X" and someone else could say, "you should say Y" but the only folks who are actually entitled to tell you what to say are those guys who write the docs.

And I don't know how it could be easier to understand colloquialisms or personal preferences than the phraseology taught in flying training. It's precisely the fact that "yup" and "OK" and ten-four" and "gotcha" and a dozen other ways of confirming, or affirming, or agreeing can be taken to mean different things, that standard phraseology has been created. Particularly in a multi-language setting where the language of ATC may not be the native language of the pilot.

[Daniel Kormendy]

I really appreciate you explaining this Mats it feels every time I get on a big position like CZQX_FSS or another center position and frustrated that a new pilot does not know what he or she is doing I can get frustrated easily and I never really understood what to do. Being a controller for about two years, I always assumed pilots had to already know information previously but I was never right. I have always been frustrated at pilots making plain dumb mistakes and I never thought of how other new pilots felt when they see a big stretch of airspace out over them and they feel overwhelmed. I say that I didn't understand this because I forgotten that I was once a new guy on the network spawning in KJFK as N172SP and requesting taxi for IFR pattern work. I want to ensure pilots enjoy there time when they fly in my airspace or that they understand everything as well and I think you helped clear this vague topic.

[Daniel Faria]

I think the ATC should be willing to help new pilots and that new pilots read the materials befor joining

[Jack Deeth]

On 8/24/2020 at 12:10 PM, Mats Edvin Aaro said:

@Tom David We have recently introduced a mandatory "P0" course + test that all new registrations must undergo before being able to log onto the network. There they are shown all of these resources in a very organized manner. You can view the info they receive by going to this link, which is a new section in the PRC PLC (Rebranded Pilot Learning Center).

The document needs updated - seems Vatsim no longer supports X-Plane 10, as all the Velocity-compatible clients have dropped XP10 support 😥

End of a somewhat blurry era!

[Don Desfosse]

Thank you for pointing that out.  Web team, the specific reference that should be updated to remove xPlane 10 is https://my.vatsim.net/learn/new-member-orientation-course/section/113/page/27

[Dace Nicmane]

15 minutes ago, Don Desfosse said:

Thank you for pointing that out.  Web team, the specific reference that should be updated to remove xPlane 10 is https://my.vatsim.net/learn/new-member-orientation-course/section/113/page/27

Done 🙂

It still says Xplane 10 in the picture, but for that we'll need a new picture.

Edited February 23, 2022 at 02:47 PM by Dace Nicmane

[Don Desfosse]

@Dace NicmaneSorry I didn't notice it right away, but we should probably remove FS2002 as well....

In terms of the picture, good point, I wonder if someone who's good with stuff like that could replace the XP10 picture in the collage with P3D.

[Dace Nicmane]

Removed FS2002 as well.

[Jack Deeth]

Graphic design is my passion 😉

[Don Desfosse]

I'm about as talented in the graphic design space...

 

[Filippo Genoni]

Bruh,

It’s probably the worst graphic ever ahah

[Robert Shearman Jr]

While we're at it, xSquawkBox needs to be removed form the list at https://www.vatsim.net/documents/approved-software

[Nicholas Fishenden]

Maybe I just got unlucky then. I am now thinking of leaving VATSIM due to the way a controller spoke to me the other night. I know I am new to VATSIM and learning  but im not new to flying or flight sims.

[Andreas Fuchs]

1 hour ago, Nicholas Fishenden said:

Maybe I just got unlucky then. I am now thinking of leaving VATSIM due to the way a controller spoke to me the other night. I know I am new to VATSIM and learning  but im not new to flying or flight sims.

Don't leave. As you wrote: it was ONE controller. One out of hundreds, if not thousands. Don't allow one bad apple in the basket spoil your experience. Give feedback to the ATC-facility where it happened.

[David Feigenwinter]

I also wanted to quickly share my experience during my FIRST flight on the Vatsim network.

I do not share the details of the flight to not expose anyone involved.

As I said, this was my first flight on the network, however I am quite experienced in flight simulation. I hesitated to try Vatsim for the longest time, but thought to give it a try. I added BEGINNER to the flight plan. Departure went smoothly. Trouble began at initial descent. Controller assigned different STAR than I expected (this is of course something the controller cannot be blamed for), but assigned me at the same time a direct-to which was NOT part of the arrival route, and expected me to be at a specific FL at a given waypoint. There was absolutely no other traffic around. I then paniced and closed the sim (I know this is a big nogo, but when panic hits you..). I never ever tried again.

To come back to the thread topic: If a new pilot explicitly adds a BEGINNER remark to the FL, why not take it slow and easy, especially if nobody else is close? Should I tell upon first radio contact that I am a beginner? And most important question: Should I try again? 🤪

[Alistair Thomson]

20 minutes ago, David Feigenwinter said:

I am quite experienced in flight simulation

Did that experience include you having to change a STAR? That process is common in VATSIM and in the real world and requires a reasonable familiarity with the FMC. Should you try again? Absolutely! But maybe you could brush up on the use of aircraft automation first! 🙂