Just out of curiousity...

[Nathan Sleyster 878239]

Sorry, let me rephrase. Why would a SUP "kick" you? The SUPs I know only do that if you refuse to follow simple instructions. I'm just concerned you had a negative experience in my airspace.

 

Perhaps you could send me an email?

 

nathan at seaartcc dot net

[Bryan Wollenberg 810243]

The PDX event, I flew around VFR in a helicopter and my party of 3 got KICKED by a SUP (remaining out side of controlled airspace.)

 

You sure you got kicked? There's no record of it anywhere.

[Joe Caban 844086]

The PDX event, I flew around VFR in a helicopter and my party of 3 got KICKED by a SUP (remaining out side of controlled airspace.)

 

You sure you got kicked? There's no record of it anywhere.

 

Ok here's how it went...

 

There were three of us flying helicopters. Pilot #1 was sent a contact me outside of the CTC area and 5 miles outside of the Charlie. We were at 300 feet.

 

10 seconds later he received a PM stating if you do not contact me you will be kicked.

 

5 seconds later all 3 were PM'd by a SUP to contact the approach controller.

 

10 seconds later... While looking up the frequency...because it wasn't in the PM, pilot #1 was "Forcefully disconnected from the server" he reconnected and was "Forcefully disconnected" again...

 

While he was saying I just got disconnected twice in team speak, I landed the helo and as the words "are you sure you got kicked" came out my mouth I was "forcefully disconnected from the server," twice.

 

He reconnected and was kicked again, I reconnected and PM'd the SUP. Once in contact with the SUP no one got disconnected again. The two in my party intentionally disconnected in disgust. I completed my flight in contact with the SUP but without contacting the controller and did not get disconnected again. I tuned in the APP controller and he called me a nut on the frequency to one of the pilots which I found humourous considering I had ring side seats to his controller skill level... ruined my night.

 

I had a long conversation with the SUP in which he denied ever kicking us and apologized for any inconvenience.

[Nathan Sleyster 878239]

So let me get this straight. You're saying you and your 2 buddies flew into the main airport in the middle of FNO when dozens of planes are inbound, not to mention the aircraft doing a turn around, and you're flying helicopters (which are not common and usually not seen by controllers). You fly into the general vicinity of the busiest airport on the entire network at the time, and then complain about the ability level of the controller who is trying to handle you and your group of VFR buddies?

 

Just out of curiosity, was this before or after you sent me a private message telling me to contact another controller for you because you can't get ahold of him? Did you think I was your personal answering service? Wait! Stop! Hold up FNO so Joe Caban and his band of VFR helicopter buddies can mosey through the area at their leisure while dozens of aircraft have to be vectored out of their way. Everybody hold! Sorry, next time we'll make a priority for you. I'll be your personal answering machine and I'll wait for your personal opinion on who is the best controller to serve you on your VFR trek across the Pacific Northwest.

 

For your future reference, since I posted my email in my previous post, I've received not one, not two, but THREE emails from people telling me they feel my pain because you have done the same [Mod - lovely stuff] in their airspace during events. You are getting quite a reputation.

[Andrew Doubleday]

Nathan,

 

Being quite used to seeing similar instances such as this with aircraft “ridingâ€

[Ryan Guffey 956726]

I was the controller controlling APP at the time. And Joe and his helicpoter buddies were flying inside Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D airpace at the time which if I recall was a featured airport without talking to anyone. The other reason, that you probably got kicked is because (I dont remember which one of you it was) one of you liked fly himself .3 miles south of the Final approach course durring FNO at KPDX, and was repeaditly told to remain 5 miles south. What gives?

Edited August 6, 2007 at 07:45 AM by Guest

[Ryan Guffey 956726]

hmmm

Edited August 6, 2007 at 07:52 AM by Guest

[Ryan Guffey 956726]

btw, I kept this just incase something like this happend.. KHIO is the cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D field 10 southwest of KPDX.

CA's dont go off unless a pilot is in the air

[Nathan Sleyster 878239]

Andrew,

 

You've got to be kidding me. You're going to lecture me on knowing my airspace...on knowing VFR? Why don't you check out the ZSE forum sometime. I and a couple others wrote the handbook on controlling VFR at ZSE. We're not afraid of VFR during an event. In fact, that's why we opened KHIO during an FNO in the first place! We thought it would provide a little extra challenge for our pilots and controllers. Do your homework next time before lecturing me on learning VFR.

 

I'm not going to get involved with the technicality of where exactly the helicopters were. I'm just saying Joe has a lot of gall flying his choppers in an area bombarded by FNO, then come on here and publicly criticize ZSE and the specific controller who was on that night.

[Nathan Sleyster 878239]

There, I added my "credentials" to my sig. But anytime Andrew Doubleday wants to come to ZSE and train me and my instructors on VFR ops in the Pacific Northwest, he's sure welcome.

 

As for the original topic of this thread, I also received a briefing in my email. Check with your ATM, he should have a copy.

[Keith Smith]

Joe,

 

Were you in Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D, E or G airspace at the time of the incident?

[Joe Caban 844086]

You guys are a joke...

 

So let me get this straight. You're saying you and your 2 buddies flew into the main airport in the middle of FNO when dozens of planes are inbound, not to mention the aircraft doing a turn around,

 

We were 10 due south of KPDX at 300 feet, BE REAL. I was never anywher near PDX or any aircraft that needed to be "VECTORED". We were landing on top of buildings downtown below and clear of any controlled airspace. I never flew higher than 100 feet!! The funny part is about an hour earlier I called the TWR controller and asked if I could shoot an approach into PDX and he approved me gave me instructions and I came in and departed. HE DID A GREAT JOB! my issue isn't with the controllers, it is with the fact that they got me kicked for no damn reason.

 

and you're flying helicopters (which are not common and usually not seen by controllers). You fly into the general vicinity of the busiest airport on the entire network at the time,

 

LOL!! hilarious statement if I ever heard one! No disrespect really. I may come off that way but take a second to see this from my point of view. I am working approach during an FNO and there is a helicopter at 300 feet "0.3NM" north of the finals in uncontrolled airspace... Which would I prefer as a controller a Helicopter that can stop on a dime, turn on a dime, and is very agile??? or a C172 that will not go below 60 kias and takes a minute to turn??? The fact that you made that comment makes me think I need to do Helicopters at every FNO... since we seem to not get enough "practice"

 

and then complain about the ability level of the controller who is trying to handle you and your group of VFR buddies?

 

I never complained about the quality of controller handling. I DID NOT WANT controller handling. MY COMPLAINT IS THAT WE GOT KICKED FOR IT no questions asked. We were in uncontrolled airspace!

 

For your future reference, since I posted my email in my previous post, I've received not one, not two, but THREE emails from people telling me they feel my pain because you have done the same [Mod - lovely stuff] in their airspace during events. You are getting quite a reputation.

 

I love Vatsim cause the people are so full B.S. it's rediculous. That night was the first night I ever flew a helicopter and the second time I ever flew VFR for an event. The first time was in the Chicago FNO...WHICH THEY HANDLED PERFECTLY! "Remain clear of the Bravo and Charlie, advise this frequency if you would like flight following, maintain VFR." Your emails either don't exist or the people who sent them to you are lying.

 

 

I was the controller controlling APP at the time. And Joe and his helicpoter buddies were flying inside Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D airpace at the time which if I recall was a featured airport without talking to anyone. The other reason, that you probably got kicked is because (I dont remember which one of you it was) one of you liked fly himself .3 miles south of the Final approach course durring FNO at KPDX, and was repeaditly told to remain 5 miles south. What gives?

 

You just caught yourself in a lie. I was within the Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D of a featured airport (KHIO) and .3NM south of the finals in west ops...LOL

 

I was cleared by HIO tower to depart, clear of the Charlie, clear of the CTC, and at the time I was close to finals I was at 500 feet, that's 1500 beneathe IFR on final at 2000 feet above me and 2.5 NM south LOL... that's uncontrolled airspace i was in buddy and I don't have to talk to you. (0.3nm would be legal if it were true.) DO you think in the real world Controllers hit some kind of contact me button...please. When I was approaching the CTC area did I NOT CALL YOU???

 

But all that's beside the point because when we got kicked 2 of us were downtown on top of 200 foot buildings and I was heading toward downtown below 300 feet about 10 South of PDX.

Edited August 6, 2007 at 04:11 PM by Guest

[Joe Caban 844086]

Joe,

 

Were you in Cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D, E or G airspace at the time of the incident?

 

I believe it would be E. We were clear of the TTD and HIO D and definitely clear of the PDX C. Downtown is 7 due south of PDX and we were well below 1000 feet the entire time. Look it up and let me know.

[Joe Caban 844086]

But anytime Andrew Doubleday wants to come to ZSE and train me and my instructors on VFR ops in the Pacific Northwest, he's sure welcome.

 

Sad part is he's not serious... AD, you're welcome to come on down to ZTL and look over some projects I am working on at anytime. Trust me I won't take any recommendations you make personally!

[Joe Caban 844086]

btw, I kept this just incase something like this happend.. KHIO is the cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D field 10 southwest of KPDX.

CA's dont go off unless a pilot is in the air

 

Your point? We had takeoff clearances from HIO Tower (Nick Bartolotta) we are VFR and responsible for our own separation. Your CA was set for IFR of 3NM/1000ft

 

Stop trying so hard to bend the truth.

[Ryan Guffey 956726]

Dude, I know when I took this picture and Nick was not online at the time. I was in control of HIO tower ops. Try again. You right Nick was on at sometime during the event, and we even had another controller get on. but there was nobody online at that time.

[Ryan Guffey 956726]

I didnt take the picture to show off a CA. I posted it because you decided to go flying without chatting with anyone. DOH

[Joe Caban 844086]

you picture is irrelevant to me. Nick cleared me for takeoff and I took off.

[Ryan Guffey 956726]

you picture is irrelevant to me. Nick cleared me for takeoff and I took off.

 

he couldnt have if he wasnt online at the time

[Nathan Sleyster 878239]

my issue isn't with the controllers, it is with the fact that they got me kicked for no damn reason.

 

[Mod - Happy Thoughts]uming you actually did get kicked from the network, it had to be a SUP doing it, not one of our regular controllers. Therefore, your beef should be with the SUP responsible. Especially if he did it without docomeenting it, which sounds like it might be the case. If you actually were staying clear of controlled airspace, what reason would a SUP have to disconnect you? Supervisors don't just disconnect people because a controller asks them to. They observe the situation, send a few private messages to the pilot, and try to work it out first. If all else fails, they do the disconnect.

[Joe Caban 844086]

I'll be sure to hit Atlanta ARTCCs next event with my C206

 

Funny, me too!

[Jonathan O'malley 904030]

Joe-

 

Look bud, I was the other approach controller controlling the FNO event. Along with Ryan, we too saw you and your 3 buddies depart from KHIO without a tower on, you were also circling the KHIO airport in cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D airspace, and departed the area without talking to anyone, and a couple times, entered the KPDX cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] Charlie without talking to anyone. The reason why I wanted you to call me in the first place was to tell you u needed to call someone while departing cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D field. It may have not been you, but I sent contactme's to all 3 of you. you proceeded northbound and entered the C, and almost ran into 2 airplanes on the LOC. and you and your buddies were playing with my final approach course without talking to anyone. I tried to contact you, and ask you to plz stay clear, but you didnt contact me until you got kicked the first time, then you yahoos took off again and started flyin around causing havoc. If you would have just contacted me the first time bro..things would have been a whole lot easier and better for you and your buddies, Im sorry that you experience in our airspace wasnt the best, but PLEASE!!! contact controllers in a huge event like this...we are stressed out and trying to have pilots not hit each other, and a lot is going through our minds. The LAST thing we want is a group of not 1, but 3 aircraft flying around our D and C fields without talking to anyone. Again, I too, like Nathan and Ryan, know our airspace, so PLEASE dont aruge...just express your opinions and thats it. Again, im sorry your experience wasnt the best, but dont fly stupid.

Edited August 6, 2007 at 04:28 PM by Guest

[Nathan Sleyster 878239]

You know, I did give my email a few posts back. We could've avoided this public discussion had you just emailed me your concerns. Regardless, we had a good time at both our events that weekend. Yours is the only complaint I've heard...amid numerous compliments. I'm done with this discussion. See you on the scopes.

[Joe Caban 844086]

Joe-

 

Look bud, I was the other approach controller controlling the FNO event. Along with Ryan, we too saw you and your 3 buddies depart from KHIO without a tower on, you were also circling the KHIO airport in cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D airspace, and departed the area without talking to anyone, and a couple times, entered the KPDX cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] Charlie without talking to anyone. The reason why I wanted you to call me in the first place was to tell you u needed to call someone while departing cl[Mod - Happy Thoughts] D field. It may have not been you, but I sent contactme's to all 3 of you. you proceeded northbound and entered the C, and almost ran into 2 airplanes on the LOC. and you and your buddies were playing with my final approach course without talking to anyone. I tried to contact you, and ask you to plz stay clear, but you didnt contact me until you got kicked the first time, then you yahoos took off again and started flyin around causing havoc. If you would have just contacted me the first time bro..things would have been a whole lot easier and better for you and your buddies, Im sorry that you experience in our airspace wasnt the best, but PLEASE!!! contact controllers in a huge event like this...we are stressed out and trying to have pilots not hit each other, and a lot is going through our minds. The LAST thing we want is a group of not 1, but 3 aircraft flying around our D and C fields without talking to anyone. Again, I too, like Nathan and Ryan, know our airspace, so PLEASE dont aruge...just express your opinions and thats it. Again, im sorry your experience wasnt the best, but dont fly stupid.

 

is this a joke? are you serious? WTF is wrong with you people?

[Joe Caban 844086]

at least I have confirmation that I was kicked while every one else tried to play dumb and blame it on network issues...